User talk:Dthaiger/GDI Nod Debate

DThaiger's initiation
Nod claims that it has seen the truth - about Tiberium, about the Earth, perhaps even about Earth as it was meant to be. Maybe the one called Kane is right. But, if some by some small measure, he is wrong - and mind you, I believe he is a great leader, and an incredible person, then what are the consequences.

First, what are the consequences if he is right? Man ascends to its destiny. But in reality, that destiny is Kane's destiny. As wonderful a destiny it might be, and utopia is something I would like to attain, myself, I'd realize that it's really Kane's utopia, not mine. And, even assuming that he is right, assuming that at the end of the struggle, there is some fantastic prize - there is still a price to be paid - and I mean beyond the deaths along the way. As long as I survived, what are other deaths to me? For I will have given up something in order to reach Kane's Utopia. I have to be willing to bring Kane's vision forth, and if that means murdering the innocent, bombing the helpless, and causing countless children to go through life permanently marred by birth defects, then this is the price I pay - mind you, for the cause of Utopia.

Perhaps it is not in you, but there is something in me that is reluctant to condemn 10 people to death, simply that I may live my life in comfort. Something that will gnaw at me, ask me why I should have deprived others of the right to life, simply so that I can reach the end goal? And there are many people who agree with me. Even before the Tiberian war, those who put their own desires above the lives of others were called selfish at best, murderers and tyrants at worst. But perhaps whatever it is I have, you don't have. To be charitable, suppose that there are some incredible mitigating circumstances.

Having considered what happens if Kane is right, let me consider the remote possibility that he is wrong. What then? If he is wrong, then what have I sold my soul to obtain? Wait, you might say - I'm not selling my soul. Everyone agrees that Kane demands complete loyalty - yes, there is infighting, but the Brotherhood is renowned for its unwavering devotion to Kane. And therefore, it makes sense that I, admittedly an outsider, believe that this is what Kane demands. If, I, stepping over the broken bodies of those who could not see the light, reach Kane's utopia - and discover that it is not a utopia at best, and at worst, a sort of pit, then what do I have? I will have the rest of my days to serve Kane, and I will have nothing in return.

But wait, you say. Even if Kane does not provide me with a utopia at the end of the conflict, there are still the things that he provides me in the here and now. He provides me with power, with prestige, and possibly, with the necessary resources for me to live, or for my family to live. I cannot simply leave him. I owe him my loyalty.

These are valid concerns. Let me address them in order. First, neglecting the issue of that there are other sources of power, what power do you really have? Perhaps you are able to order a division into battle, or command a legion of men to do your bidding. As soon as someone else in the brotherhood, similarly desirous of the power that you possess, has a method of eliminating you, your power will fall to another. Even on the outside, the rumors of the infighting which occurs inside the brotherhood are legendary.

But let us assume that you are clever enough, and well protected enough, that no subordinate (or for the sake of discussion, superior), can challenge you in your power. You have absolute control over your soldiers. There are many other things that can rob you of your power - disease, famine, loss of the battle, and many other things. Agreed that just because power is fleeting does not mean that it is necessarily of no worth at all. But considering the risks, and the possibility that Kane will disappoint (however remote that may be), is the fleeting advantages of power worth the risks involved.

A similar case can be made for prestige. However, the thorniest issue for me is the case where Kane feeds your family, and this may be the case. But if this is the case, you are basically a mercenary. You fight primarily not because you believe in Kane's vision (although this may also be important), but because of the necessary services he provides. I've seen the yellow zones, and I know that this is very important. However, there is one problem. You see now that Kane provides you the resources you do not have, for he is very resourceful. You then, by your actions, wish to create similar conditions for others, by attacking those and weakening others who happen to have those resources. I understand that there may be issues of resentment involved, or that misery loves company. But assuming that you are wildly successful in your attacks upon GDI, that the blue zones are destroyed and Tiberium spread throughout (thus creating conditions similar to a yellow zone), what have you achieved? Your resentment has been lifted, but what is left? As the famous Gandhi said, now more than 100 years ago:, "An eye for an eye makes the whole world blind."

[]

I conclude this over-long essay simply by stating that things worth being fought over, better had be worth fighting over. Is what you are fighting over, worth being fought over?

Brother Tagaziel's response

 * The vision of Kane is the only real alternative we have. Tiberium is a deadly parasite, one that will not let itself to be removed, and it has already scarred Earth irreversably, destroying wildlife and plantlife, turning it into a desolate wasteland and just beginning terraforming and creation of it's own ecosystem.


 * We, the homo sapiens are relics of an age long past. We eke out our existence in shielded zones, hoping that a miracle comes and destroys Tiberium.


 * There is no miracle.


 * GDI says it protects us, but for the past thirty years has done nothing to help the situation. They researched military technologies, hovercrafts, body armour, weaponry... where are methods of eliminating Tiberium? They had thirty years of peace to research and introduce means of destroying Tiberium or at least halting it's progress.


 * They did little.


 * Tiberium infestation has spread throughout the world, changing it into a desolate desert, and as this act is completed, it will begin a full scale transformation. Meanwhile, GDI preferred to launch a large spacestation Philadelphia in orbit. Now, it's lifeforms and plantlife spread throughout the lands, occupying territories and replacing the old ecosystem. Namely us, humans.


 * The Brotherhood has been continuously fighting to estabilish global control and make humanity ascend to a higher level, where we can coexist with Tiberium and build a better future instead of hiding in shadows, shivering in paralyzing fear.


 * We, brethren of Nod, refuse to cower in fear.


 * The Brotherhood is not flawless, but the clause of infighting is exaggerated and mistaken for strict requirements. If a brother fails, it is up to his superiors to decide whether he should be executed for failure or given another chance. These executions are often taken for infighting, because outsiders know little of the code of the Brotherhood.
 * We also performed rather appalling experiments on not always voluntary subjects, however, they were all performed with humanity's sake in mind, as we are continuously searching for a way to augment and enhance humanity, so that it can evolve and not be afraid or threatened by Tiberium.


 * In the long run, seeing how Tiberium will eventually win, we will have to choose between survival as a new species or extinction as the old species. My friend, you can easily guess which path is pursued by whom.


 * Brother Tagaziel,
 * Nod Intelligence Officer

DThaiger's Response

 * I say that Brother Tagaziel is mistaken. At one point, Tiberium would have made Earth's atmosphere 100 percent toxic to human life - that didn't happen, because GDI was there. Blue zones do exist, in large part because of the Sonic resonator fields that keep Tiberium from expanding. Recently, additional blue zones were created through the shattering of Tiberium crystals by the harmonic resonance of its fundemental frequency. GDI is trying to provide what will admittedly take a miracle. It will not be easy. But at least, we have made progress.


 * Let me try to explain the 'strict requirements' clause.


 * Despite whatever infighting may exist (If Brother Tagaziel says that there is no infighting, that's fine, because it's not vital to my clause), throughout the Brotherhood, there is strict loyalty to Kane, (and if Brother Tagaziel is right, success is also required).


 * (My logic and math is rusty, and this argument very well might be wrong.)


 * If A is a property in common of all members of a set B, then it is reasonable to believe that either the elements of set B were chosen because they had property A, or that all elements of larger group C, from which set B is drawn, share property A.


 * In this case, Set B is defined as: "Members of the Brotherhood of Nod," and set C is defined as: "Humans in General", and property "A" is defined as "Loyalty to Kane."


 * Since not all humans are loyal to Kane, and all members of the Brotherhood of Nod are loyal to Nod, it is reasonable to assume that the members of the Brotherhood of Nod were chosen (or enrolled) because of loyalty to Kane. Therefore, it is also reasonable to assume that Loyalty to Kane, is a pre-condition required for entrance to the Brotherhood. --Dthaiger 16:57, 13 January 2007 (UTC)

Brother Tagaziel's Response

 * I understand your concerns and points, commander, however, consider the fact that it took GDI 47 years at best to devise a weapon that was able to remove Tiberium. However, the technology is still highly experimental and far from perfection, seeing how they only made enough progress to clear a few zones in Germany, and, ironically, it's powered by Tiberium.


 * Tiberium is irrevomable permanently. As such, even if they manage to remove and destroy Tiberium crystals, the veins and underground deposits would still be present and will erupt once again, but this time, the technology won't be available that fast, as the Tiberium would have to be harvested and processed.


 * I seen the ravages of Tiberium. My homeland was taken over by it. I've seen how it changed the land, that was dead and desolate. It introduced beauty once again, wildlife when there was none... The word has been ravaged for the past 50 years by Tiberium. It is a sad, desolate place, torn apart by wars among petty warlords.
 * If GDI manages to destroy Tiberium, it will leave a desert behind. A desert devoid of all life. A wasteland. There is no wildlife anymore. Tigers, cougars, zebras, elephants, crocodiles, wild birds... all dead. All lost. Already.


 * We want to shape a new Earth and advance humanity. It will be costly, but ultimately, it will allow us to flourish once again. Where there is no life, it will appear again. Where there is no water, it will run again. Our Tiberian future awaits us. We can accept it, and we can perish...


 * That's why we folow Kane. We have our fair share of psychopats and criminals, but tell me, is GDI any different, with commander McNeil prizing Umagon over the lives of his men in an unauthorized raid against Kane's Pyramid in Cairo? With it protecting the blue zones fiercely without actively maintaining a presence in the yellow zones? We aren't that much different, you and I, we just fight for different causes we believe in.


 * Brother Tagaziel,
 * Nod Intelligence Officer

That's nice. You could put the above two essays as subpages on the Tiberium/Nod/GDI/TWII/TWI page as two sides of a debate. btw, who is Tagaziel? Is he ingame? I'm interested... --Snow|93(talk) (Edward Lilley) 17:48, 13 January 2007 (UTC)
 * Tagaziel is my new nickname, as I use Mikael Grizzly both as fictional name and surname and legit nickname. Besides, it sounds cooler. Not to mention that I make it a habit not to use any names taken directly from games, as it limits creativity and can be considered a rip-off. Mikael Grizzly 22:05, 13 January 2007 (UTC)

Dthaiger's Response
First Paragraph-Either address my points directly, or acknowledge that you cannot defend against them. This business of 'I understand your points, however consider ...,' is a subtle way of trying to shove my arguments under the rug as you present yours. For example, you mentioned in your first response that GDI had done nothing to defend against the ravages of Tiberium. In direct response, I put forward the Sonic Resonator technology. Now, even if I am incorrect, I have at least responded to the concern brought up. For a second example, you believe I am confused about the strict requirements, so I bring up my logic.

Second Paragraph - The sonic resonator technology may be capable of also destroying the roots, and we cannot assume that, even after an area is cleared, it will regrow. Evidence from reclaimed blue zones in Germany would seem to indicate (seeing as they have indeed been reclassified Blue), that the Sonic Resonator technology not only destroys Tiberium, but also prevents it from regrowing. Furthermore, that's not the only thing. To the accusation that GDI has not been able to do anything against Tiberium itself (never mind the Atmospheric decontamination GDI performs), I say this:

It's Nod's fault.

You are right to ask for an explanation or an example, and I will provide one. During the Second Tiberium War, a GDI installation was close to finding a cure - a Serum which would counteract the effects of Tiberium poisoning. Naturally, this would have meant great things for the mutants, and eventually, it could have led to a method of Tiberium Decontamination - 15 years before we eventually developed it. The records recovered by GDI, specifically, Kane's personal archives which were recovered from his Cairo Temple, are clear, though we needed no additional evidence. A Nod force broke through the GDI defenses, and destroyed the center - lest we make progress. Nod has tried to stifle us - prevent us from breaking through to tackling the problem.

Note that this does not address the question of whether or not such a Serum would have been good for humanity. But it is not fair to complain that there has been a lack of progress, when the same person complaining sabotages the other side.

Third and Fourth Paragraphs- I'd like to make several points about this paragraph. First of all, good use of alliteration on the last sentence. Second, the use of 'lions, tigers, etc,' and the use of the alliteration is designed for emotional appeal. And with this removed, the argument Brother Tagaziel is making is this:

1. Tiberium has destroyed all indigenous life in the zones where it has taken control, and introduced new life. 2. If Tiberium is destroyed (and presumably the life that has been forged by the Tiberium as well), the place will be a desert. 3. It is preferable to have Tiberium Life than no life at all. 4. Therefore, Tiberium should remain. 5. Therefore, since there is no alternative to Tiberium we should embrace it.

I will accept 1 and 2 as givens.

Suppose that I propose the following thought experiment: "Suppose that I give you the choice of two rooms to live in. In one, there is a man-eating plant. The other room is completely empty. Which room do you pick?"

The moral is clear: 0 is greater than a negative. I myself would rather have a barren desert than a landscape that actively attempts to kill me. Rather a simple, open plane, then a field of Tiberium that continuously breaks down my skin, Visceroids that desire to digest me within their amorphous mass, Fiends who lust to impale me with shards of Tiberium, or Floaters who would like nothing better than to electrocute me with enough electricity to flesh melt an armored suit to my charred skin.

Fifth Paragraph.

Brother Tagaziel makes a number of claims:

1) It was reckless for GDI commander Michael McNeil to attack Kane's temple just to save Umagon, which makes it all right to employ Psychopaths and Murderers (His words). Although I can't speak for Commander McNeil, I am authorized to say that he received word from a mutant commando about a gigantic Tiberium missile that (as far as the GDI techs know), would have converted the world into a Tiberium wasteland. Suppose however, that it was 'just to save Umagon,' and not because of the grave threats that were presenting themselves. Is this truly comparable to hiring Psychopaths and murderers? Murder has a certain definition, which is not just the reckless endangerment of others. Murder is putting your hand on the pulse-rifle and pulling the trigger (Excluding felony murder for the sake of argument). Psychopath also has a specific definition: "intraspecies predators who use charm, manipulation, intimidation, and violence to control others and to satisfy their own selfish needs. Lacking in conscience and in feelings for others, they cold-bloodedly take what they want and do as they please, violating social norms and expectations without the slightest sense of guilt or regret." - Dr. Robert D. Hare, Professor emeritus, University of British Columbia). Even under the most stringent definitions, it is clear that Michael McNeil - if he was doing this out of concern for Umagon, indeed had feelings for others.

Hindsight is 20/20, so they say, and in this case - at least as based on GDI objectives, the mission was an overwhelming success. Perhaps his judgment was clouded by his feelings for Umagon, - however many other times he has cold-bloodedly led GDI soldiers to victory, even when there was a cost. McNeil is not a Psychopath.

2. Brother Tagaziel also mentions that GDI does not have an active presence in the Yellow Zone. I should point out that the fact that we've actually converted some Yellow Zones into Blue Zones indicates that a permanent presence in these zones is not something GDI lacks. And we are trying to help. We don't give out nearly as much aid as the brotherhood, this is true. But we're trying to make the lives of those who live with the constant threat of Tiberium and warlords better, by converting Yellow Zones to Blue zones. And it's not an easy thing to do.

- Last Sentence -

The last sentence indicates that there's really not that much difference between Brother Tagaziel and myself. The sentence's goal is to grant an escape clause, and also to make it seem like the author is being fairer than he actually is. But let us consider the actual statement. It is true, and it's not true. Obviously, we're similar in some respects, and different in others. We're both very dedicated to our respective sides, enough to spend time rebutting each other in this manner - in text. We're both clearly capable of debate. But dedication itself is not really an important similarity. To take a slightly ludicrous example, I might be dedicated with every muscle fiber, neuron connection, angstom of bone and particle of being - that drinking motor oil is good for me - if I really did believe this, then everyone, GDI and Nod alike, would call me a lunatic, and I might wind up in a mental institute. Whereas, if I believed with similar devotion that the sky is blue, then no one would bat an eye. Therefore the substance of a belief is far more important than the fervor for which it is held (although this is also very important). This given, then as long as I serve GDI, and Brother Tagaziel serves Kane, then we are indeed very different persons.

Brother Tagaziel's Response

 * I see that you are indeed a worthy adversary.


 * My friend, the Sonic Resonator was developed in 2047, over fifty years after the Tiberium meteorite hit Earth. It took GDI fifty years to develop it, even though the technology was available already in 2030, but the formation preferred military armament and development of weaponry, instead of methods of pushing back Tiberium.


 * We didn't interfere. The traitor Hassan has kept the Brotherhood tranquilized, and safe. However, GDI did not use the time to devise methods of Tiberium removal, preffering augmenting it's military.


 * Now, it is deploying sonic resonator technology because Tiberium started to threaten their blue zones, and they are forced to act. I doubt they'd have done anything if it didnt't.


 * You point to German blue zones as an example, however, the timespan is too short to make a final statement that it's clear. We know that the resonator destroys crystal Tiberium structures, but it is unknown if it also acts on underground formations, which allow it to simply regrow back.


 * Also, I see that the propaganda and GDI misinformation have took it's toll on you. The research facility you mention did not perform research of any kid, it was merely a decoy estabilished by GDI to lure general Anton Slavik into a trap. We posess a recording of Umagon, in which she explicitly states that there is "no cure for Tiberium poisoning" and indeed, her demise after being administered Tratos' serum proves this point.


 * Again, we did not sabotage your research for thirty years - enough for you to develop walkers and advanced weapon systems, but strangely, not enough to devise a method of removing Tiberium and/or stopping Tiberium induced mutation in humans.


 * Furthermore, you try to draw a parallel between Tiberian wildlife and a man-eating plant, which is flawed. Tiberian wildlife can be tamed, as it possesses advanced intelligence, unlike plants. Mutants have tamed them, seeing how they ultimately posess the mentality of a dog, acting according to the deeds performed to them.


 * Now, look on this from the other side - by destroying new wildlife, you are basically performing genocide on a mass scale, destroying new animals without means to introduce old ones.


 * They are animals and plants, and they are not inherently aggresive. Predatory, yes, but not aggressive indscriminately. The new landscape Tiberium creates is a beautiful thing, and we will be able to embrace it once we are changed into Tiberium-based organisms.


 * You, the GDI want the world to be a desert by destroying Tiberium. We want it to be reborn and again flourish.


 * And you provide a description of a psychopath that strangely fits Michael McNeil:
 * "Intraspecies predators" - the zeal with which he hunts down Nod is apparent in the journal entry he made at the beginning of the Firestorm Crisis.
 * "Charm, manipulation, intimidation and violence" - he fits almost all, using charm to control his soldiers, intimidation and violence to brutally interrogate Vega and murder Kane, even though he could take him in as a P.O.W. (internal security records show, thet the beam he used could've been used as a blunt weapon to knock out our leader, but McNeil preffered impalement. This makes him a cold-blooded murderer.
 * "own selfish needs" - the main driving force of McNeil was his desire to get Umagon, not save the world.
 * "Lacking in conscience and in feelings for others" - only display of affection for feelings of others was when he was told that his brother was in Hammerfest, overrun by our forces.
 * "they cold-bloodedly take what they want and do as they please, violating social norms and expectations without the slightest sense of guilt or regret." - McNeil ordered an attack on Cairo violating his superior's orders, attacked a heavily guarded base with minimal forces and indeed succeeded, at the cost of his soldiers' lives and shown no remorse over the fact, preffering enjoying Umagon, his prize.


 * Basing on this definition, McNeil is indeed a psychopath. Granted, Anton Slavik fits this description too, but not as fully as Michael McNeil - Slavik always served his superiors and always put duties above his own needs. He is always bound by the will of Kane and code of the Brotherhood.


 * Your second point argues that GDI does help the yellow zones. However, considering that your forces were not interrupted for the past seventeen years and you had superior firepower to the ones employed by Yellow Zoners, I found that extremely surprising that GDI decided to take refuge in Blue zone strongholds and allow the Brotherhood to take an active role in providing humanitarian aid for the inhabitants of Yellow Zones.


 * It is highly illogical of the GDI to complain about how they are being driven out by Nod supporters when they were never as active as Nod was in the regions. I'm just an intelligence officer, but I recognize the need to provide extensive humanitarian aid to calm down the zones before attempting any serious military action, all the while GDI strategists forgot about it during the 17 years of our absence on international politics and evens' scene.


 * And indeed, we are the same. You are a GDI zealot, while I am a fierce beliver in the cause of and ideals of Nod. At the very core, we are the same. We have simply different experiences - my homeland was overrun by Tiberium and Nod was there to help evacuate my family and provide them with shelter and work. Meanwhile, the GDI was nowhere to be seen.


 * You want to amplify humanity with technology, we want to do it with Tiberium.


 * One vision, one purpose brother. Soon.


 * Brother Tagaziel,
 * Nod Intelligence Officer

Interjection by 63.65.45.98
If the Brotherhood of Nod is for Tiberium mutation why did they act so cruel to Tiberium-mutated humans during the Second Tiberium War? They captured a GDI base and level a mutant city just to decive mutants into supporting them, then when some mutants do join them they abandon them to try and take on a GDI base by themselves. If Nod does value a "Tiberium Future" who do they disregard Tiberium-mutated humans? --63.65.45.98 18:56, 14 January 2007 (UTC)

DThaiger's response to concerns
Excellent questions. You've obviously been doing some research. I'm sure that Nod would say that the needs of the many outweigh the needs of the few, which is to say that although obviously the mutants were the losers in this, it was necessary to bring forth Kane's vision of humanity, and that the benefits outweigh the risks. Now, here we see both implicit trust in Kane's vision, but also a rather twisted and utilitarian view of the world (as popularized by John Stuart Mills). I think that the best refutation of this viewpoint (at least that I know of), is found in Dostoyevsky's Crime and Punishment, an excellent story, although I should point out that it was old when the First Tiberium War was young. Put another way, to say that my contributions are worth more than other persons, to the point that if that person impedes me, I can kill him/her, is absolutely wrong, and the height of arrogance. This, in simplest terms, is what Kane is doing, and the mutant destruction you refer to above is an example of it.

Now that I'm off the soapbox as to my belief and analysis of Nod's true motives in this incident, let me get to your specific concerns.

1. If the Brotherhood of Nod is for Tiberium mutation why did they act so cruel to Tiberium-mutated humans during the Second Tiberium War?

Based on my research, as well as my discussions above with Brother Tagaziel, Nod believes not that mutation itself is good, or an end, but that the Tiberium "Super-Human" is the end goal. They are willing to produce this "Super-Human" by any means. Therefore, since mutants are at least partially along to that goal, then why should we not experiment on them, since we won't have to do as much work, they provide a large sample space, etc.

2. If Nod does value a "Tiberium Future" who do they disregard Tiberium-mutated humans?

I'm pretty sure they do not disregard them per se, but they do perform experiments upon them. I'm sure Brother Tagaziel can elaborate on this. --Dthaiger 01:22, 15 January 2007 (UTC)

Dthaiger's Response to Tagaziel
1. First of all, please stop the false brotherhood. Even if you don't think so, I think that we are enemies. You are not my friend in any sense of the word.

2. I'm not going to respond directly to the accusations made about McNeil, other than to say that he didn't even know about Umagon until after he had investigated an alien ship.

3. During this time period, GDI bankrolled and supplied Drs, Mobius, who during the early to late stages of the First Tiberium War - up to including the Renegade period - were the leading Tiberium Scientists of the time. Frankly, it was Mobeius who first said that 'Tiberium Might be Dangerous,' which was stated slightly before the First Tiberium War even began. Also, GDI even commissioned a commando raid to return them to their original research about Tiberium, rather than Tiberium Augmentation. After this, GDI employed Dr. Bodreau, but little progress was made until the Firestorm crisis. I remind you that immediately after GDI eventually recovered the Tacitus, we began an atmospheric stabilization program, without which the Earth's atmosphere would have been 100 percent toxic to human life by January, 2032.

4 and 5. Let us agree, therefore, to state that the question of Tiberium's permanent removal from an area is a currently unresolved issue.

6. I have enough evidence, including building blueprints, lists of scientists assigned to the project, guards and units assigned to its defense, papers filed under the names of those scientists, as well as Nod records. You forget that we have access to Kane's personal archives, including a transmission where he indicates that he was concerned that the facility may have been developing a cure for divination. Furthermore, there are more than enough still around who turned on Nod when they realized what the facility's actual intent was. There is more than enough evidence to know that this is not a ruse. And even if it was a ruse - why would Slavik attack what he thought was a Tiberium Serum production plant, if not to forestall its eventual deployment to the masses - those who have been made Divine, and wish to become human once again.

7. Just because a project takes a long time to complete does not mean that it is low priority or that it is being neglected. For an example: Fermat's last theorem was postulated in the 1600s, but was only solved roughly 50 years ago, in the 1990s. It was not for a lack of trying, it was because of a lack of the necessary tools (in this case, highly advanced mathematics), required to solve the problem. Similarly, for the 40 years of research before GDI possessed the Tacitus, 1.5 percent of the composition of Tiberium remained stubbornly labeled: Unknown. Despite the work of Drs. Mobieus, their teams, the preliminary work of Dr. Boudreau, and others, we simply could not understand Tiberium. Again, it's not necessarily from a lack of trying.

8. That's not precisely what I meant. Maybe the Tiberium life can be tamed - if so it would represent a great advance in our ability to defend ourselves. However, that's not my point. Tamability aside, Tiberium and Tiberium based life appears to be very dangerous to a regular human. I know if I started walking in a Tiberium field without a power suit, I'd quickly die and be changed into a visceroid. During my campaigns, I've seen it myself. To extend my metaphor: Maybe there's a room with 5 man-eating plants, of which, I have a chance of taming some of them (not all because Tiberium itself cannot be tamed). That still doesn't mean I want to go into the room.

9. Back in the 1990s, there were certain plants and animals that were native to one continent, but not another. When introduced to the new area, they would quickly displace the indigenous plants or animals from that area, often forcing them to become extinct. Environmentalists would often pull up that plant / kill that animal, because it was not native, and it was disrupting the balance. That's what Tiberium is doing, and humanity is an example of an indigenous species. As for Genocide ... Genocide is a loaded term that means, specifically: "any of the following acts committed with intent to destroy, in whole or in part, a national, ethnic, racial or religious group, as such: killing members of the group; causing serious bodily or mental harm to members of the group; deliberately inflicting on the group conditions of life, calculated to bring about its physical destruction in whole or in part; imposing measures intended to prevent births within the group; and forcibly transferring children of the group to another group" []. This is not genocide, on a certain level, it is self defense. Genocide implies humanity. Also, wouldn't it also be genocide for Tiberium or Nod to eliminate humanity? If GDI is committing genocide by trying to destroy Tiberium, then Nod is certainly committing Genocide by attempting to destroy humanity as it currently exists.

10. The fact that they don't attack everything in sight, IE, that they are not wanton, is not an issue. They seem to discriminate against humans, that is the issue. Frankly, I do not wish to be prey for something else, which is why I keep my M16 Mk II Pulse Rifle handy.

11. I've already explained my view on Michael McNeil. However, I will now comment specifically upon Slavik and Kane, since you bring it up. According to the records contained in the captured Montauk, Slavik actually executed someone who, far from threatening him, was actively welcoming him, because he believed the person in question was a traitor. If it is wrong to kill rather than incapacitate an active enemy when given the opportunity, surely it is also wrong to do so when the person is under your command and in your control. Slavik could have simply given the order. Further, Slavik also actually slit the throat of an enemy who had been captured, before a rally of hundreds of soldiers (as revealed by the records stored in the temple where it occurred, Kane's temple). As for Kane, our records (and many years of hindsight), reveal that he has executed subordinates for insubordination, taken and used hostages, attempted to specifically target univolved neutrals, and even used nuclear weaponry upon a civilian town (as was documented by now retired commando Nick Parker, as well as the radioactive ruins of said town.) Slavik and Kane are far worse than McNeil.

12. We have made forays of aid and assistance - you apparently haven't noticed. A part of the problem is location. Nod is by necessity located in the Yellow Zones, since no one can actually live in the Red Zones, and GDI holds the Blue Zones. Suppose, for example, that GDI and Nod disburse equivalent amounts of aid, and that this aid is divided uniformly among the zones that each side has access to. Nod does not at the present time, have access to the blue zones or the red zones. It therefore disburses 100 percent of the aid it has to the people in the yellow zone. GDI, on the other hand, has access to both the Yellow zone and the blue zone. 5/7 ths of its resources would therefore go to the Yellow zone, and 2/7 to the blue zone. Nod wins the resource war in the Yellow zones. But this vastly underestimates the other advantages location provides, such as the intelligence benefit of recruiting from the Yellow Zone and its intendant intelligence bonuses, the fact that GDI often doesn't know where the aid needs to go, the fact that GDI really has access only to those blue zones adjaicent (for practical, large scale purposes) to the blue zones, and the fact that such convoys have to be escorted from Nod attack.

Continued at:
User talk:Dthaiger/GDI Nod Debate2