Command and Conquer Wiki talk:Speculation/Archive 1


 * The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed solutions to speculative information. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a new topic on the Speculation page).  No further edits should be made to this page.  

I've already done this, but as some might consider it speculation, I will place it here. Furthermore, I think we've already discussed it a little, but I'd like to discuss it more.

Basically, the way I write history articles is in such a way as to include as much as possible from both campaigns while still making things consistent, even if I have to include something else to make it consistent. This is particularly evident from the article on Tiberium Dawn. My reasoning is as follows.

1. It was official 'canon' in some respect - even though one side wins, the other side still has cutscenes and storylines

2. Whatever I don't include didn't happen, so that means that to include as much as possible of the game itself, I must do this.

--Dthaiger 14:55, 6 June 2006 (UTC)

Yep, so basically include everything as long as it doesn't change the main storyline. If anything is contraversial, dicuss it here.

Ion Cannon Power Transmission
It has to be that the Advanced Communications Center is transmitting power, rather than simply providing communications. If it was simply providing communications, then the Ion cannon (which would be powered by an independent mechanism), would continue to charge while the Advanced Communications Center is offline. Furthermore, it would mean that the Ion Cannon should start out fully charged when the advanced communications center is built.

I think you are right, it also says so in the Tiberian Dawn manual --Agaiz 07:38, 5 July 2006 (UTC)

Uh then wouldnt you have to take into account the actual sttelite gettinginto geo synchroous orbit ABOVE the actual theatre?---cHr0n0sPh3r3

If they made it totally real, there would be a loss to gameplay, and that wuld be silly, seeing as it is a game. Also, commanders all over the world (we assume) are using the Ion Cannon. And, as you can see from the picture, there are clearly large solar panels on the satellite, presumably for charging it. "Transmitting power" is too far-fetched- if you're going to say it does that in this encyclopedia, then at least say how. Also, please sign your name with ~ Oh, and Agaiz, which of us did you say weas right? --Snow93 08:04, 5 July 2006 (UTC)

I meant Dthaiger... because the manual states something like "the Ion cannon draws power from your base; if your power is low the weapon stops charging". Could it be that it is not powered in the sense of it having a microwave transmitter or anything (like in Generals, the particle cannon), but rather it's dependent on a continous feedback signal from the base station in order to work. --Agaiz 08:55, 5 July 2006 (UTC)

Yes- if it does not receive continuous GPS-like data from your comm/upgrade-centre it cannot be targeted. The "charging" up period is also careful aiming. --Snow93 15:03, 5 July 2006 (UTC)

It can't be careful aiming because commanders can target the ion cannon anywhere on the map, and the ion cannon will fire instantaneously, with no targeting delay. This was true in both TS and TD. So therefore, it has to be something different. I think it is more plausible that the solar panels on the ion cannon are used to run certain internal systems that have to be powered regardless of a targeting/ charging system from base, such as maneuvering thrusters (without which the ion cannon would plummet from the sky), positioning signals (to say that the ion cannon is in a certain place, so the Advanced Comm Center / Upgrade Center with Ion Cannon plug can find it), and other things like that.

Here's how I would say it, I think:

There is a network of ion cannon satellites in orbit, sufficient to provide continuous coverage over the entire globe - the only limitation is how much power that the commander can spare for it.

An ion cannon needs at least a certain amount of power - or more specifically, voltage. Below that level, the capacitors on board of the ion cannon cannot develop the necessary charge - and the more voltage, the faster the ion cannon's capacitors can be charged, due to multiple capacitors that can then be charged simultaneously.

This is done with a focused tight beam microwave transmission. Atmospheric losses, unfortunately, prevent the system from being extremely efficient.

--Dthaiger 01:23, 27 July 2006 (UTC)

I had always assumed that the Ion Cannon was lauched from another base when the Advanced Communication Center (in Tiberian Dawn) or the Ion Cannon Uplink (in Tiberian Sun) was constructed. Then it goes up and starts charging. The computer then has to control it to make sure the solar panels are pointing towards the sun at all times, this would be why it stops charging when the computer loses power.

It was likely built to not be able to contol itself from it's onboard computer incase someone had hijacked it. This way they would have to have knowlage of how the compter from the ground also.

--63.65.45.98 17:28, 14 August 2006 (UTC)

Perhaps, but even if the solar panels were not point directly at the sun, I would still expect it to charge a little. Furthermore, assuming that the orbit and orientation is done properly, the Ion cannon will be oriented such that the Solar panels are always oriented at the sun. --Dthaiger 16:12, 19 August 2006 (UTC)

How about... there is only one satellite (obviously), and the charging up period is the satellite travelling around the earth to the area above your baswwe. If your comm. centre loses power it has no signal to home in on. That's the best I can do atm. --Snow93 21:17, 27 August 2006 (UTC)

Hmmmm. The problem about that, is that, as I've said, an orbit with a 7 minute duration would be below the level of the Earth's surface. How about we ask predator about this (since APOC is gone). As for my idea ...

The Ion cannon is a network of satellites, and the satellites themselves produce a gigantic charged particle cannon, which is delivered from a huge capacitor. During the first Tiberium war, there were only a few satellites, and therefore, continuous coverage (every 7 minutes), was provided over very small areas. This would require approximately 6 - 7 satellites. While there was only ever one satellite in firing position at any one time, the ion cannon network is equipped with microwave power transmission systems that allow nearly instantaneous distribution of power resources. However, due to the incredible power requirements of the system, the system must be charged from a ground source, an extremely power intensive ground source. Power is again transmitted through microwave power transmission from the ground. Solar panels present on the ion cannon satellite are provided for two reasons. First, to prevent any leakage from the capacitor - capacitors slowly do leak charge over long periods of time. Second, to run internal guidance systems, which provide precise targeting, and other tasks, especially communication links, that require non-capacitor targeting, and which need to be powered at all times.

As for why the Ion cannon doesn't start out charged - that's simply an accounting system. Basically, if someone else (another commander) spends the effort of charging it up, then that commander gets to use the ion cannon.

But like I said. Someone ask Predator--Dthaiger 21:18, 27 September 2006 (UTC)

I think having more than one satellite is perhaps going too far. --Snow|93(talk) (Edward Lilley) 15:42, 28 September 2006 (UTC)

Ok, now here's something official for that matter taken right from the developer's blog: Ion Cannon technology has continued to evolve, taking enormous strides in lethality and accuracy. The Earth is ringed with a necklace of next-generation battle stations armed with powerful new Ion Cannons tied into the most sophisticated anti-satellite/ anti-missile defense system in history. Ion Cannons can now hit large numbers of moving targets in space and the upper atmosphere as well as on the ground. The brain for this spectacular ASAT/ABM system is currently ground-based given the vast computing and communication requirements. However, a new generation of orbital platforms and space stations are being built with an eye to the future, with the crown jewel of the fleet being a dramatically expanded and upgraded GDSS Philadelphia.

--Agaiz 16:08, 1 October 2006 (UTC)

This has been going on for far too long. Can we take a vote and be done with it? --Dthaiger 05:41, 14 November 2006 (UTC)

I'll add my 2 cents: gen. Shephard mentions that you, as a high (possibly highest) ranking field commander gain access to a new prototype space based ion cannon. Therefore, the cannon would be moved/moving into geo-stationary orbit over the area your forces are in. While there, the cannon remains in dormant state until an Advanced Communication Center is constructed, at which point an uplink is estabilished, and the weapon begins charging it's capacitors. However, if the uplink is severed, the charging process is interrupted and for safety reasons (so that the weapons platform does not overcharge) the charging process is paused. Once full charge is reached, the ground control maintains the charge at safe levels, targetting it and locking onto a target designated by the commander. Mikael Grizzly 01:06, 5 January 2007 (UTC)

Yep, that's all good, except it's not a prototype, it's been there since TWI. But that makes sense 9overall. --Snow|93(talk) (Edward Lilley) 10:34, 5 January 2007 (UTC)

Well, I aimed the description primarily at TW1... however, the future versions can be explained by strict enforcement of security measures - it's hard to repair a space-based weapon, so when not in use, it remains ina dormant, stand-by state, until a commander requires it's services, at which point he constructs an Ion Cannon uplink. Mikael Grizzly 16:03, 5 January 2007 (UTC)

Or between the wars GDI were too busy clearing up the tiberium mess to worry about upgrading it/launching new ones. Besides, they didn't think Nod would come back. --Snow|93(talk) (Edward Lilley) 19:42, 5 January 2007 (UTC)

True, true... Mikael Grizzly 20:01, 5 January 2007 (UTC)

I agree that it would be nice if there were only one satellite in geosynchronous orbit - but unfortunately, we have direct cutscene evidence to the contrary. In the GDI cutscene 13 (intro), where the Ion Cannon is first introduced, the ion cannon is clearly in a much lower than geosynchronous orbit (which would be several planetary radii away from the planet, or about 26000 miles above the surface. This is not the case. []

With the permission of the other admins, I'd like to set up a voting page for this issue, that it may be resolved --Dthaiger 07:03, 7 January 2007 (UTC)

what if we look at it like this it is just a **** game dont worry about how it is charged, fires, orbits, and positions it dosent matter! becides its an ION cannon not microwave it blasts things with ions. By Greg

MESSAGE
THE TRANSMITTER FROM THE BASE MUST CHARGE, THAT'S ALL!I mean, the the transmitter from the base uses all the base to target the Ion Cannon systems over the target with extreme speed, and by 1995 it was very difficult, and later the system became more complicated.

Could you be a bit more precise in what you have to say, 82.79.66.60 please? --Snow|93(talk) (Edward Lilley) 18:20, 6 September 2006 (UTC)

There's two problems with your explanation, Snow93. The first is that in order for it to be moving around so fast (7 minutes or so, it would have to be flying underneath the level of the ground. Obviously, that's not the case. Second, one could keep the ion cannon in orbit, charged, for quite a while.

Ok, perhaps you have to tell it when you want it to charge up. It is not already charged because it cannot keep charged for very long (battery problem?). --Snow|93(talk) (Edward Lilley) 17:56, 7 September 2006 (UTC)

Firestorm Defense
Hi. When I first stumbled upon the C&C Wiki, The Firestorm Defense page was already up. Before I became a Sysop, and even after, I tend to be gentle, adding to but not really editing existing material. Obviously that changed. But in any case, the original description included non-Canon material that we probably need to replace --Dthaiger 01:10, 27 July 2006 (UTC)

What in the article seems wrong? --63.65.45.98 17:34, 14 August 2006 (UTC)

See the first version (although it is an anonoymous IP address, it is actually me). --Snow|93(talk) (Edward Lilley) 18:39, 27 September 2006 (UTC)

Orca Dropship
Exactly why is this here --Dthaiger 23:02, 8 August 2006 (UTC)?

Why wouldn't it be here? --63.65.45.98 17:37, 14 August 2006 (UTC)

Sorry, it's because we have no sure evidence that Dropships can fly into space. The Kodiak can. Maybe there is evidence in a cutscene that I haven't seen. --Snow93 20:07, 14 August 2006 (UTC)

MESAGE FOR ALL
THE DROPSHIP CAN FLY INTO SPACE, THEY COME TO DROP UNITS FROM "PHILADELPHIA"

The units are not from the Philadelphiua- that would be unnecesarry. Beside, there wouldn't be enough space. The Dropship comes from off the map- from another Earthbound GDI base. --Snow|93(talk) (Edward Lilley) 18:22, 6 September 2006 (UTC)

I suppose that the issue here is in the wording of 'Dropship,' IE, similar to drop pods, which are indeed space capable. I don't think we have evidence one way or the other, and since nothing is required for the sake of consistency, then I'd have to say that we can't say anything. If, on the other hand, one wants a definite decision, I'd have to guess that - no-, Orca dropships cannot go into space. If I understand Orca technology properly, and perhaps I do not, it's basically not a helicopter, but rather a variable position linked set of jet engines, and therefore it behaves more similarly to a Harrier than a true Helicopter. Secondly, again if I understand correctly, even in later versions of Orcas is this preserved. Jet engines rely on drawing in oxygen from the atmosphere and do not function in space. --Dthaiger 05:48, 14 November 2006 (UTC)

The Kodiak is also an Orca!

First-gen ORCA tech would have been jet propelled. In between the first and second tiberium wars GDI could have designed ion drives (given GDI's experience with ion cannon tech)for the ORCA,which would explain why the kodiak is a ORCA variant and also can go into space. So yes I guess they could go into space, but suborbital from another planetside GDI installation and/or the philadelphia. --ConcordiatAlpha 05:40, 07 January 2008